John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
Found the Yelp review. I read it a while ago so some of my facts were off but same deal [deleted Yelp review for privacy - mod]
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
^gymchick, notwithstanding all of the above (most folk here have stated they do empathize with Joan's emotional pain and from personal experience too), the two over riding concerns going forward are:
a) Is Joan ready for another child? That child has rights too. It has the right to a healthy and secure emotional upbringing. Can any of us honestly say right now, hand on heart, that that will be the case? Or will it (possibly forever) be competing and losing against the ghost of Maeve? I get that Joan maybe taking longer than other loss mothers to move to the acceptance phase but all the pointers thus far do not bode well. The most unsettling part recently - her crying out in her sleep for Maeve when she has literally just miscarried another brand new potential baby. That is current proof that even Sweetpea was still living in Maeve's shadow because otherwise she would be crying out in her sleep for her newly lost pregnancy, no? Some people never move forward after the death of a loved one, they are literally not able to and I don't judge anyone in this category as sad as it is if that's the case. But IF that is the case with Joan my question at the beginning of this paragraph remains pertinent.
b) Are they financially stable enough to raise a child? A child also has the right to have it's minimum financial needs met which brings me back to the point I made on the previous page regards the $2,800 TTC treatments they felt needed to be funded by other people and not themselves; despite the fact had Maeve lived they would have spent way more than $2,800 in the same 15 month period on that baby. Do you see what I'm getting at? They also live at home with Joan's parents which some folk are speculating is to save for TTC/IVF treatments. If that's the case why the need for two fund raising platforms? They are over $7,000 surplus ($3,500 from the post Sweetpea/new frozen embryo implantation GFM and $3725 from the IVF GFM which became factually obsolete since they won the competition) from what they needed/asked for and that doesn't sit well with many of us from a purely ethical view point.
The bottom line is, there seem to be some unpalatable and concerning issues that cannot (in good conscience) be ignored, surrounding this whole tragedy.
a) Is Joan ready for another child? That child has rights too. It has the right to a healthy and secure emotional upbringing. Can any of us honestly say right now, hand on heart, that that will be the case? Or will it (possibly forever) be competing and losing against the ghost of Maeve? I get that Joan maybe taking longer than other loss mothers to move to the acceptance phase but all the pointers thus far do not bode well. The most unsettling part recently - her crying out in her sleep for Maeve when she has literally just miscarried another brand new potential baby. That is current proof that even Sweetpea was still living in Maeve's shadow because otherwise she would be crying out in her sleep for her newly lost pregnancy, no? Some people never move forward after the death of a loved one, they are literally not able to and I don't judge anyone in this category as sad as it is if that's the case. But IF that is the case with Joan my question at the beginning of this paragraph remains pertinent.
b) Are they financially stable enough to raise a child? A child also has the right to have it's minimum financial needs met which brings me back to the point I made on the previous page regards the $2,800 TTC treatments they felt needed to be funded by other people and not themselves; despite the fact had Maeve lived they would have spent way more than $2,800 in the same 15 month period on that baby. Do you see what I'm getting at? They also live at home with Joan's parents which some folk are speculating is to save for TTC/IVF treatments. If that's the case why the need for two fund raising platforms? They are over $7,000 surplus ($3,500 from the post Sweetpea/new frozen embryo implantation GFM and $3725 from the IVF GFM which became factually obsolete since they won the competition) from what they needed/asked for and that doesn't sit well with many of us from a purely ethical view point.
The bottom line is, there seem to be some unpalatable and concerning issues that cannot (in good conscience) be ignored, surrounding this whole tragedy.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
She doesn't appear to have lost her practice/license. She's still showing up on _______ Midwives website: ______________gymchick43 wrote:If you google the midwives they had....I already forget the name, __________ something? John has a Yelp review. they did try to sue- Midwife lost her practice and license.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
I thought she confirmed the thing about the midwife in comments on Instagram. I would have to search. I totally see where you guys are coming from. I'm just being emotional and wanting to root for them, and hoping for the most ideal situation that john finishes the house and gets another job lol and Joan gets her healthy baby and is no longer so sad.... Lol I'm sure my opinions might change.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
Nope she's still active of Maine board of nursing. No disciplinary actions are against her either.Scar2016 wrote:She doesn't appear to have lost her practice/license. She's still showing up on Midwives website:____________gymchick43 wrote:If you google the midwives they had....I already forget the name,________ something? John has a Yelp review. they did try to sue- Midwife lost her practice and license.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
I wanted to root for them too, but there are too many red flags for me. That, and I really do think Joan bends the truth. There is that part in the submission video where she mentions having "23 pictures" and John says "I thought we had more?" She looks at him and softly repeats the 23 (or whatever number it is) and looks down and it just didn't feel genuine to me. At the time that stood out to me, but I had no reason to believe she would add to the drama, and I really was rooting for them. Since the drama with the cat, the GFMs and reading the DAILY, MULTIPLE, postings where Joan lays it on thick, I really do think there is a part of her that enjoys the audience.gymchick43 wrote:I thought she confirmed the thing about the midwife in comments on Instagram. I would have to search. I totally see where you guys are coming from. I'm just being emotional and wanting to root for them, and hoping for the most ideal situation that john finishes the house and gets another job lol and Joan gets her healthy baby and is no longer so sad.... Lol I'm sure my opinions might change.
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Let's be clear, I don't think she's crazy. I just don't think she's ready for a baby. Look at her IG, and then look at John's.... they seem very different. Joan makes it sound as though they are grieving in bed together everyday, but John's makes it seem as though he wants to ride and work on the house. I think he spends a lot of time caring for Joan. She also mentioned being good and sleeping a lot during her pregnancy.... you can't sleep a baby into better health. Plus the substance abuse question and the GFM ethics.....
Her latest post mentions she feels her grief has hit its terrible twos. It is lashing and wailing and seems to be only growing. She had said she has been diagnosed with "Complicated Grief" so this could certainly be the case. If so though, a new baby isn't going to suddenly change that. It was horrible that they lost Maeve, but a new baby doesn't deserve to be born into a mess, or have the job of serving his/her mother's mental health.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
After reading that I honestly do think that Jon and Joan were a bit negligent in not pursuing a second opinion when they knew something was wrong. It seems like there were warning signs from start to finish, and this is exactly why pregnant women needed to be treated by medical professionals in fully stocked centers or hospitals, not using some hollistic healing bullshit.
They're absolutely not to blame for what happened, but how could they possibly ignore all of the warning signs, weird prescriptions, low kick counts, strange baby weight, etc?
They're absolutely not to blame for what happened, but how could they possibly ignore all of the warning signs, weird prescriptions, low kick counts, strange baby weight, etc?
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
I'm not blaming them either, but just saying that that like the cat incident, there are two sides to every story.RootBeerFloatie wrote:After reading that I honestly do think that Jon and Joan were a bit negligent in not pursuing a second opinion when they knew something was wrong. It seems like there were warning signs from start to finish, and this is exactly why pregnant women needed to be treated by medical professionals in fully stocked centers or hospitals, not using some hollistic healing bullshit.
They're absolutely not to blame for what happened, but how could they possibly ignore all of the warning signs, weird prescriptions, low kick counts, strange baby weight, etc?
I noticed a link to a previous GFM on Joan's IG to publish a book about Maeve. She got the money, but do we know if she ever finished it?
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
See, here's the thing. If the midwife has no disciplinary action against her, John's Yelp review could actually be construed as slander. Pretty sure she could sue them for that although I guess you'd have to be pretty heartless to do so and I'd imagine many people in her situation and position wouldn't dream of doing that. But a negative review is still a negative review of someone's professional life considering the midwife is clearly still practicing. Does anyone have a screenshot of where Joan says she was struck off? None of these mounting facts helps put their integrity in a good light and it is precisely this (although an aside to their tragic story) that rational folk find pretty difficult to ignore; especially when fund raising platforms are involved.hwarner wrote:Nope she's still active of Maine board of nursing. No disciplinary actions are against her eitherScar2016 wrote:She doesn't appear to have lost her practice/license. She's still showing up on _______________ Midwives website: __________________/gymchick43 wrote:If you google the midwives they had....I already forget the name, _________ something? John has a Yelp review. they did try to sue- Midwife lost her practice and license.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
I was surprised to see that the midwife is a CNM, so she has actual medical training. Personally I would feel more comfortable with a CNM than a lay midwife, and maybe Joan did as well. The fact that the midwives focused on treating Joan suggests that there was not a trusting relationship between Joan and her midwives and that the midwives had reason to believe that Joan was not mentally sound (especially since she was prescribed Ativan, an anti-anxiety medication; not saying anxiety = mental illness, but reading between the lines, I feel like the midwives felt Joan was a hypochondriac and generally nervous; they also prescribed her sleep aids). There was clearly a lot going on in this dynamic. Of Joan's six unscheduled visits, who knows how many of them were for low kick counts and how many of them were other, less legitimate concerns. I know some pregnant women call their doctor when they get a cold, even though nothing can be done.RootBeerFloatie wrote:After reading that I honestly do think that Jon and Joan were a bit negligent in not pursuing a second opinion when they knew something was wrong. It seems like there were warning signs from start to finish, and this is exactly why pregnant women needed to be treated by medical professionals in fully stocked centers or hospitals, not using some hollistic healing bullshit.
They're absolutely not to blame for what happened, but how could they possibly ignore all of the warning signs, weird prescriptions, low kick counts, strange baby weight, etc?
This is just to say the situation was more complicated than uninformed first-time parents and incompetent midwives...
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
Oh, I definitely took that review with a grain of salt. Given that it was written by a grieving father and the midwife has no disciplinary strikes against her, I'm sure that it's highly exaggerated to make her seem incompetent and them seem like victims.
It does the opposite for me though, it just makes me think that the pair of them are stupid for not getting a second opinion if all of those things truly happened that way. I'm sure there was much more going on behind the scenes that Joan and Jon won't tell us, and perhaps the midwives really were negligent in their treatment. We'll never know what really happened. All I meant is that Jon listed every incident he could think of to trash them, but instead of making the midwife look bad, I just think it makes them look bad for going along with such obvious bullshit.
It does the opposite for me though, it just makes me think that the pair of them are stupid for not getting a second opinion if all of those things truly happened that way. I'm sure there was much more going on behind the scenes that Joan and Jon won't tell us, and perhaps the midwives really were negligent in their treatment. We'll never know what really happened. All I meant is that Jon listed every incident he could think of to trash them, but instead of making the midwife look bad, I just think it makes them look bad for going along with such obvious bullshit.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
This is exactly what I was thinking. Joan mentioned after her last D&C that she was changing doctors again because the D&C doc seemed so compassionate towards her and promised she would get pregnant again. She said she also promised the D&C would be a gentle removal. I REALLY side-eye the new doctor based on this, and it tells me that Joan is looking for someone who will tell her what she wants to hear, more than one that will tell it like it is. It didn't sound like she had been given questionable care with Sweetpea, and yet she was so quick to change doctors when she felt one was giving her more attention than the other.fossilfinger wrote:The fact that the midwives focused on treating Joan suggests that there was not a trusting relationship between Joan and her midwives and that the midwives had reason to believe that Joan was not mentally sound (especially since she was prescribed Ativan, an anti-anxiety medication; not saying anxiety = mental illness, but reading between the lines, I feel like the midwives felt Joan was a hypochondriac and generally nervous; they also prescribed her sleep aids). There was clearly a lot going on in this dynamic. Of Joan's six unscheduled visits, who knows how many of them were for low kick counts and how many of them were other, less legitimate concerns. I know some pregnant women call their doctor when they get a cold, even though nothing can be done.
This is just to say the situation was more complicated than uninformed first-time parents and incompetent midwives...
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
I'm thinking maybe they shouldn't have kids. She has too many issues, and a baby isn't going to solve it. I'm sorry for what she went through, but she's clearly an unstable person in general.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
Today is my day off, it's pouring down rain, and I've got nothing to do. So, I've done a little digging. It seems that Joan flat out lied when saying that Ricci lost her license and had to partially pay their medical bills.
Kristin Ricci's page on the Back Cove Midwives website is still there, but they've taken down any mention of her or direct link to it. You can still find it via google because it still exists, but it doesn't seem to be possible to navigate to it on their current website because she no longer works there. She is currently working at the Maine Medical Center as a certified nurse midwife. As of right now she still has a current CNM and RN license, with no disciplinary action through the Maine State Board of Nursing.
And then I found this: on Joan's facebook. It's basically a longer version of the yelp review, but the important part is at the top: Our lawyer has determined today that we do not have a legal case against Back Cove Midwives even though they did SO many things wrong. Because of Maeve's growth restriction in the end of my pregnancy there is no way we would win. They would say my baby would have been imperfect or defective in some way (even though we all know that just isn't so.)
So they pursued legal action with a lawyer, who told them that they had no legal grounds to sue Ricci or Back Cove Midwives, due to the fact that Maeve had a growth restriction. That directly contradicts Joan's comments about this case on instagram.
Kristin Ricci's page on the Back Cove Midwives website is still there, but they've taken down any mention of her or direct link to it. You can still find it via google because it still exists, but it doesn't seem to be possible to navigate to it on their current website because she no longer works there. She is currently working at the Maine Medical Center as a certified nurse midwife. As of right now she still has a current CNM and RN license, with no disciplinary action through the Maine State Board of Nursing.
And then I found this: on Joan's facebook. It's basically a longer version of the yelp review, but the important part is at the top: Our lawyer has determined today that we do not have a legal case against Back Cove Midwives even though they did SO many things wrong. Because of Maeve's growth restriction in the end of my pregnancy there is no way we would win. They would say my baby would have been imperfect or defective in some way (even though we all know that just isn't so.)
So they pursued legal action with a lawyer, who told them that they had no legal grounds to sue Ricci or Back Cove Midwives, due to the fact that Maeve had a growth restriction. That directly contradicts Joan's comments about this case on instagram.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
John and Joan definitely have unrealistic expectations about their baby's assumed health because Joan leads a healthy lifestyle. I looked up intrauterine growth restriction, and it can be caused by issues such as chromosomal abnormalities. I don't remember John or Joan mentioning Maeve having an autopsy (please correct me if I'm wrong). If they didn't, which would be a very bad choice if they wanted to have other babies and prevent similar issues, they are making a lot of assumptions. They are assuming Maeve would have been perfectly healthy if she had survived, and would be a normal, active toddler now - or even that she would have survived infancy altogether. Of course, if it had turned out she survived and had health or genetic issues, I'm sure John and Joan would have loved her all the same. But there were potentially factors completely out of everyone's control.
I don't think they would be horrible parents, and I don't think their baby would be ill-used. I just think they are very much in denial and are obsessed with having control over all situations. There is no guarantee that anyone, no matter how healthy they are, will be granted fertility and a child in perfect health. And unfortunately, even those who deserve to have children won't be granted them by good karma alone. I think their attempt to turn their anger and grief outward and find blame is preventing them from fixing all the internal issues they have.
I don't think they would be horrible parents, and I don't think their baby would be ill-used. I just think they are very much in denial and are obsessed with having control over all situations. There is no guarantee that anyone, no matter how healthy they are, will be granted fertility and a child in perfect health. And unfortunately, even those who deserve to have children won't be granted them by good karma alone. I think their attempt to turn their anger and grief outward and find blame is preventing them from fixing all the internal issues they have.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
The lie's about the midwife are inexcusable. On top of all the other factors previously mentioned it's all leaving an unsavory taste regards Joan and John's inherent integrity. A tragedy in life should not make a liar out of anyone.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
The anecdote about the midwife showing up at the funeral sounds like a lie as well, it's just too dramatic and cliche ("the repentant midwife responsible for the baby's death shows up to make amends and admit her wrongdoing")RootBeerFloatie wrote:Today is my day off, it's pouring down rain, and I've got nothing to do. So, I've done a little digging. It seems that Joan flat out lied when saying that Ricci lost her license and had to partially pay their medical bills.
Kristin Ricci's page on the Back Cove Midwives website is still there, but they've taken down any mention of her or direct link to it. You can still find it via google because it still exists, but it doesn't seem to be possible to navigate to it on their current website because she no longer works there. She is currently working at the Maine Medical Center as a certified nurse midwife. As of right now she still has a current CNM and RN license, with no disciplinary action through the Maine State Board of Nursing.
And then I found this: on Joan's facebook. It's basically a longer version of the yelp review, but the important part is at the top: Our lawyer has determined today that we do not have a legal case against Back Cove Midwives even though they did SO many things wrong. Because of Maeve's growth restriction in the end of my pregnancy there is no way we would win. They would say my baby would have been imperfect or defective in some way (even though we all know that just isn't so.)
So they pursued legal action with a lawyer, who told them that they had no legal grounds to sue Ricci or Back Cove Midwives, due to the fact that Maeve had a growth restriction. That directly contradicts Joan's comments about this case on instagram.
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Re: John and Joan (IVF grant recipients)
As a nurse, that stands out to me as a possible fabrication. It's just inappropriate, unless you have a _very_ special relationship with the patient and know you're going to be welcome. I seriously doubt a midwife who knew that they blamed her for the death of their baby would show up at a funeral like that.
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