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E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby HelloSweetie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:45 am

Boredomatitsfinest wrote:
HelloSweetie wrote:
Which comment had 51? The two I see are 9 and 10. Does it show up different on the site?

Kryptonite wrote:
actuallydear wrote:
Maybe no one messaged a mod, but surely 51 people that took the time to 'like' my post about it being in poor taste trumps the 10 or so that 'liked' the couple defending the title?



The one thing I do want to respond to is your claim that 51 people have liked your post? That is a massive exaggeration. I did read the post since you mentioned it and 10 people have liked your post. That many people have also defended the title...

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Sorry to butt in here, but I just feel the need to defend actuallydear. The app only shows up to 10 likes and then stops there. If you view a user's profile on the website, you are able to see how many likes a user's post actually got. I stopped counting at about 25, so she definitely has well above 10 likes on her original post.

Not trying to add to the controversy - I just wanted to clarify that, in case each of you are using different ways of viewing the site and it's causing confusion/miscommunication.


Thought the site may have been different. Never knew that because I'm always on TT!
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby hellomydolly » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:45 am

I don't know much about miscarriage, but am I correct in understanding that the embryo was forming but detached or shrunk so it was no longer a viable pregnancy, and now she had the empty sack but no embryo? What is the medication for, for her to pass the sack? That sounds like an awful experience. Has anyone been through this? Does it come out like a normal period or all at once or what?
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby HelloSweetie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:03 am

hellomydolly wrote:I don't know much about miscarriage, but am I correct in understanding that the embryo was forming but detached or shrunk so it was no longer a viable pregnancy, and now she had the empty sack but no embryo? What is the medication for, for her to pass the sack? That sounds like an awful experience. Has anyone been through this? Does it come out like a normal period or all at once or what?


Sort of? The fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterine wall, but fails to actually grow and develop into an embryo. The uterine sac however continues to grow, though without forming n actual embryo and is called a blighted ovum. It's the number one most common type of miscarriage.

Yes I've used the meds twice, and they cause your cervix to dilate and expel the contents. In my experience, it is fast, painful, and worse than a natural miscarriage, though when I used it I was quite a few weeks farther along than Ellie would have been and would have had more to pass. Ellie likely experienced something comparable to a very heavy, crampy period with a few large clots in the beginning. As awful as it is, her and Jared are being dramatic. I didn't want my husband to sit in the bathroom with me. I wanted him to leave me alone and to just make sure our son was ok and kept happy and quiet so as not to bother or worry about me. You just know the boys were walking in and out of that bathroom and were given too much info about what was going on....

Also, thunjung about it just now, I remembered something. I have long and irregular cycles like Ellie, and the longer the cycle has lasted, the heavier and more clotted the period due to the lining having longer to prepare. I would almost bet that this is what has her thinking she has had more than one miscarriage now. A longer than usual cycle, followed by a very heavy period. Ellie dos at know her body well (or medial science!) and has an insane tendency to insist she is pregnant when she's not. I wonder if her first postpartum period was very heavy, and looking back on it now (an now that it's convenient) has her guessing it was a miscarriage. Sorry for TMI, but I had forgotten the correlation between the long cycles and heavy periods until just now.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby tnchk1187 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:48 am

Ellie and Jared believe that they got pregnant with Calvin because of their good deeds and life being in favor with God. I wonder how they view this miscarriage? If good things happen when you are good people what's their explanation for bad things?


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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby lmmomSD » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:14 am

tnchk1187 wrote:Ellie and Jared believe that they got pregnant with Calvin because of their good deeds and life being in favor with God. I wonder how they view this miscarriage? If good things happen when you are good people what's their explanation for bad things?


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That's what I always wondered _before_ this happened, and what they must have been thinking when they heard Joan's story. I honestly think that their pretzel logic doesn't consider that side of it. Otherwise, how could she explain her struggle to get pregnant before Jackson?

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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby smellycat801 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:13 am

priestess wrote:I would say the overreacting and Ellie's reaction to what is going on is a reflection of her culture. It's not just for viewers she doesn't know; it's for people who may be watching in her ward.

I've been super fascinated with Utah Mormon culture mainly because I disagree with so many things. LGBTQIA policies, the fact that women are expected to be stay at home moms & the highest thing they can do is be president of their local relief society charity, that being black is considered a curse from god. It's like Scientology too where they don't associate with ex-mormons, and they have such strange "secretive" rituals in the temple. Plus those god awful temple garmets we can occasionally see the Griffith sibs wear under their clothes. The goal is to be the happiest, Whitest family with no problems in the least. You're raised from birth to be a perfect mormon barbie doll, and if you can't keep it up then you're out of your temple wedding. In the mormon community, women are expected to have at least 5 kids. They actually look down at you if you have anything less; I was reading on one ex mormon forum where they were giving one mom hell until she broke down in a meeting about her struggles with getting pregnant again. One mother had three kids, and someone else was like "well of COURSE you have a job, you only have three children!!"

So, in a culture where the value of a woman is equated to their ability of how well they 1) birth some babies, 2) clean up after everyone, and 3) have a pinterest-perfect house, of course she's devastated. I think they're also trying to drum it up with shots like Jared sitting in the bathroom so that way their ward knows they're trying, it's not their fault, and it's not intentional. I didn't see the phone call so I don't know if she's intentionally insensitive and bitchy, but for the most part it seems like she's really wrapped up in her own life & trying to project that image of perfection to everyone that she decided to do that.

ALSO I'm not trying to knock SAHM & SAHD's or anything! It's a super hard job & is important. I just find it really strange that women expect & are expected to stay at home while the father works, especially in this day in age where it's so expensive.
I'm a Utah Ex-Mormon, and it isn't true that Mormons aren't supposed to associate with ex-Mormon. Yes, there are assholes who choose that on their own, but it isn't what the church actually teaches or encourages.

Also, I never heard that they should have at least 5 kids. Big families are common and in a way encouraged, but there isn't any sort of teaching or rule on the number of children you should have.

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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby priestess » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:28 am

smellycat801 wrote:
priestess wrote:I would say the overreacting and Ellie's reaction to what is going on is a reflection of her culture. It's not just for viewers she doesn't know; it's for people who may be watching in her ward.

I've been super fascinated with Utah Mormon culture mainly because I disagree with so many things. LGBTQIA policies, the fact that women are expected to be stay at home moms & the highest thing they can do is be president of their local relief society charity, that being black is considered a curse from god. It's like Scientology too where they don't associate with ex-mormons, and they have such strange "secretive" rituals in the temple. Plus those god awful temple garmets we can occasionally see the Griffith sibs wear under their clothes. The goal is to be the happiest, Whitest family with no problems in the least. You're raised from birth to be a perfect mormon barbie doll, and if you can't keep it up then you're out of your temple wedding. In the mormon community, women are expected to have at least 5 kids. They actually look down at you if you have anything less; I was reading on one ex mormon forum where they were giving one mom hell until she broke down in a meeting about her struggles with getting pregnant again. One mother had three kids, and someone else was like "well of COURSE you have a job, you only have three children!!"

So, in a culture where the value of a woman is equated to their ability of how well they 1) birth some babies, 2) clean up after everyone, and 3) have a pinterest-perfect house, of course she's devastated. I think they're also trying to drum it up with shots like Jared sitting in the bathroom so that way their ward knows they're trying, it's not their fault, and it's not intentional. I didn't see the phone call so I don't know if she's intentionally insensitive and bitchy, but for the most part it seems like she's really wrapped up in her own life & trying to project that image of perfection to everyone that she decided to do that.

ALSO I'm not trying to knock SAHM & SAHD's or anything! It's a super hard job & is important. I just find it really strange that women expect & are expected to stay at home while the father works, especially in this day in age where it's so expensive.
I'm a Utah Ex-Mormon, and it isn't true that Mormons aren't supposed to associate with ex-Mormon. Yes, there are assholes who choose that on their own, but it isn't what the church actually teaches or encourages.

Also, I never heard that they should have at least 5 kids. Big families are common and in a way encouraged, but there isn't any sort of teaching or rule on the number of children you should have.

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That's interesting! But yeah, it's not explicitly written however there are those who choose to excommunicate from those who were excommunicated/chose to left. Did you find it was more older people who felt like they had to stop talking to ex-mos and younger people who were more accepting?
It's probably different for each person. Threads mention the 5 is the magic number for having kids unwritten rule due to the whole "multiply and replenish the earth" thing. Could be different for each person.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby smellycat801 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:51 am

priestess wrote:
smellycat801 wrote:
priestess wrote:I would say the overreacting and Ellie's reaction to what is going on is a reflection of her culture. It's not just for viewers she doesn't know; it's for people who may be watching in her ward.

I've been super fascinated with Utah Mormon culture mainly because I disagree with so many things. LGBTQIA policies, the fact that women are expected to be stay at home moms & the highest thing they can do is be president of their local relief society charity, that being black is considered a curse from god. It's like Scientology too where they don't associate with ex-mormons, and they have such strange "secretive" rituals in the temple. Plus those god awful temple garmets we can occasionally see the Griffith sibs wear under their clothes. The goal is to be the happiest, Whitest family with no problems in the least. You're raised from birth to be a perfect mormon barbie doll, and if you can't keep it up then you're out of your temple wedding. In the mormon community, women are expected to have at least 5 kids. They actually look down at you if you have anything less; I was reading on one ex mormon forum where they were giving one mom hell until she broke down in a meeting about her struggles with getting pregnant again. One mother had three kids, and someone else was like "well of COURSE you have a job, you only have three children!!"

So, in a culture where the value of a woman is equated to their ability of how well they 1) birth some babies, 2) clean up after everyone, and 3) have a pinterest-perfect house, of course she's devastated. I think they're also trying to drum it up with shots like Jared sitting in the bathroom so that way their ward knows they're trying, it's not their fault, and it's not intentional. I didn't see the phone call so I don't know if she's intentionally insensitive and bitchy, but for the most part it seems like she's really wrapped up in her own life & trying to project that image of perfection to everyone that she decided to do that.

ALSO I'm not trying to knock SAHM & SAHD's or anything! It's a super hard job & is important. I just find it really strange that women expect & are expected to stay at home while the father works, especially in this day in age where it's so expensive.
I'm a Utah Ex-Mormon, and it isn't true that Mormons aren't supposed to associate with ex-Mormon. Yes, there are assholes who choose that on their own, but it isn't what the church actually teaches or encourages.

Also, I never heard that they should have at least 5 kids. Big families are common and in a way encouraged, but there isn't any sort of teaching or rule on the number of children you should have.

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That's interesting! But yeah, it's not explicitly written however there are those who choose to excommunicate from those who were excommunicated/chose to left. Did you find it was more older people who felt like they had to stop talking to ex-mos and younger people who were more accepting?
It's probably different for each person. Threads mention the 5 is the magic number for having kids unwritten rule due to the whole "multiply and replenish the earth" thing. Could be different for each person.
I think it just depends on the person. My family is still super Mormon (Dad is currently a Bishop) but they've all been really good to me since I left the Church.

I could definitely see Ellie not being so nice to Ex Mormons, but then Jared strikes me as someone who would still treat them well.

I think another factor is the area you live in. I live in an area that isn't super concentrated with Mormons, so people are just used to any of the neighbors not being Mormon and it isn't a big deal. But go to one of the higher concentrated areas, and there are going to be some people who are jerks because ex-Mormons are going to be the "different" ones.

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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby gymchick43 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:39 am

5 min video today, Jared said they are preparing for a D&C tomorrow


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E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby HelloSweetie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:44 am

gymchick43 wrote:5 min video today, Jared said they are preparing for a D&C tomorrow


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That's interesting, and tells me that Ellie isn't doing well emotionally (which I totally understand). She said a few days ago the plan was to stop the Progesterone and wait a week or two. Then the next day they have Misoprostal and are supposedly miscarrying, and then a D&C tomorrow. That's a lot more intervention in a short period of time than doctors usually like to do. Most patient women are desperate to get it over with, so I imagine Ellie is probably not doing that great. She may also not want to wait two weeks longer to start trying again. I remember that feeling all too well also.

Most people have to take time off work to deal with things like this, it really doesn't sit well with me that they are profiting off this. Jared had to put a vlog out I suppose, but I think he should just take a few days break.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby menehune » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:02 am

HelloSweetie wrote:
gymchick43 wrote:5 min video today, Jared said they are preparing for a D&C tomorrow


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That's interesting, and tells me that Ellie isn't doing well emotionally (which I totally understand). She said a few days ago the plan was to stop the Progesterone and wait a week or two. Then the next day they have Misoprostal and are supposedly miscarrying, and then a D&C tomorrow. That's a lot more intervention in a short period of time than doctors usually like to do. Most patient women are desperate to get it over with, so I imagine Ellie is probably not doing that great. She may also not want to wait two weeks longer to start trying again. I remember that feeling all too well also.

Most people have to take time off work to deal with things like this, it really doesn't sit well with me that they are profiting off this. Jared had to put a vlog out I suppose, but I think he should just take a few days break.


I thought the same thing. A lot has gone on in a short period of time and from any care I've received this is atypical. Waiting for the Progesterone to wear off may be miserable, but a natural miscarriage is gentler on your body and has far fewer risks. I doubt Ellie has done her research and knows that though.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby BadWolf » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:08 am

Ellie's parents are currently enjoying a lavish European vacation. They are posting pics and vids on instagram daily. Do we think Ellie is bothered by the fact that mother hasn't rushed home to be at her side?

Maybe the excess dramatics aren't just for the vlog? Maybe they are to make Jennifer feel guilty for not being home with her baby?
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby lyddiebug » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:45 am

I haven't been watching Ellie+Jared for awhile, because I generally think their videos are boring and full of enthusiasm for literally the most boring things. But, I saw the title for their miscarriage video and have watched all the videos since then. I absolutely ache for Ellie and Jared and the grieving process they are going through (not to mention Jackson, who was excited about a little brother or sister, and who probably doesn't fully understand what is happening). However, it really upsets me when they talk about how "tender" Jackson and Calvin are being to Ellie. Jackson and Calvin are toddlers. Of course, I think that they should be good to Ellie and treat her well during her grieving process, but constantly talking about how sweet they are being makes it sound like it is the job of these small children to take care of their parents. Also, Jackson probably needs some support from his parents at this juncture too; of course, they won't realize this, because they continue to treat Jackson as an infant who cannot do or understand anything.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby gopedjane » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:07 am

BadWolf wrote:Ellie's parents are currently enjoying a lavish European vacation. They are posting pics and vids on instagram daily. Do we think Ellie is bothered by the fact that mother hasn't rushed home to be at her side?

Maybe the excess dramatics aren't just for the vlog? Maybe they are to make Jennifer feel guilty for not being home with her baby?


Yeah, but who as an adult would want their mother to come home from a vacation to come and comfort them for a miscarriage. Not saying that it's not a big deal but most people don't even tell people until they are out of the first trimester, so many just go through it alone. As much as she wants attention, I can't fathom that she would need her mother to ruin her vacation to come home and comfort her.

I was feeling bad for them and still do but the vlog yesterday and today are a bit much for me. Like they are capitalizing on it and if they don't have anything else to vlog about, then take a break. They've basically tagged these videos to continuously bring in more income.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby HelloSweetie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:11 am

gopedjane wrote:
BadWolf wrote:Ellie's parents are currently enjoying a lavish European vacation. They are posting pics and vids on instagram daily. Do we think Ellie is bothered by the fact that mother hasn't rushed home to be at her side?

Maybe the excess dramatics aren't just for the vlog? Maybe they are to make Jennifer feel guilty for not being home with her baby?


Yeah, but who as an adult would want their mother to come home from a vacation to come and comfort them for a miscarriage. Not saying that it's not a big deal but most people don't even tell people until they are out of the first trimester, so many just go through it alone. As much as she wants attention, I can't fathom that she would need her mother to ruin her vacation to come home and comfort her.

I was feeling bad for them and still do but the vlog yesterday and today are a bit much for me. Like they are capitalizing on it and if they don't have anything else to vlog about, then take a break. They've basically tagged these videos to continuously bring in more income.


A Narcissist would.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby Pency » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:12 am

lyddiebug wrote:I haven't been watching Ellie+Jared for awhile, because I generally think their videos are boring and full of enthusiasm for literally the most boring things. But, I saw the title for their miscarriage video and have watched all the videos since then. I absolutely ache for Ellie and Jared and the grieving process they are going through (not to mention Jackson, who was excited about a little brother or sister, and who probably doesn't fully understand what is happening). However, it really upsets me when they talk about how "tender" Jackson and Calvin are being to Ellie. Jackson and Calvin are toddlers. Of course, I think that they should be good to Ellie and treat her well during her grieving process, but constantly talking about how sweet they are being makes it sound like it is the job of these small children to take care of their parents. Also, Jackson probably needs some support from his parents at this juncture too; of course, they won't realize this, because they continue to treat Jackson as an infant who cannot do or understand anything.


Yeah, it really bugs me. I don't know if I agree that they treat Jackson like an infant, I feel like in lots of ways they expect him to take on very adult roles, telling him about every pregnancy, how pregnancy tests work, taking him and Cal to a viability scan -- it's just too much, and what you said about them expecting the boys to take on a nurturing role is so true. It's not your toddler's job to nuture you, it's the other way around. It can be a psychologically damaging thing for a child to feel like they have to take care of their parents instead of the other way around.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby gopedjane » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:12 am

lyddiebug wrote:I haven't been watching Ellie+Jared for awhile, because I generally think their videos are boring and full of enthusiasm for literally the most boring things. But, I saw the title for their miscarriage video and have watched all the videos since then. I absolutely ache for Ellie and Jared and the grieving process they are going through (not to mention Jackson, who was excited about a little brother or sister, and who probably doesn't fully understand what is happening). However, it really upsets me when they talk about how "tender" Jackson and Calvin are being to Ellie. Jackson and Calvin are toddlers. Of course, I think that they should be good to Ellie and treat her well during her grieving process, but constantly talking about how sweet they are being makes it sound like it is the job of these small children to take care of their parents. Also, Jackson probably needs some support from his parents at this juncture too; of course, they won't realize this, because they continue to treat Jackson as an infant who cannot do or understand anything.


This, they shouldn't really know anything other than mommy isn't feeling good and may need some quiet time. Other then that, THEY should be their TOP priority. This mention of how "tender" they are being to her is the most ridiculous thing. My toddler, one minute kisses me and the next head butts me. LOL. I don't tell people how sweet and mean he treats me. It's my job to teach him what is appropriate, end of story.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby calliepaige84 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:22 am

I think at this point they are trying to say the word tender as many times as possible in one video just to annoy the shit out of us.

On another note I feel for Ellie and so sad that she is having surgery. I never had to have a D&C but my miscarriage completely broke me. Those emotions are so hard to deal with and everything she said yesterday was spot on. Angry, sad, numb, all in a matter of minutes.


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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby Kryptonite » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:23 am

Boredomatitsfinest wrote:
HelloSweetie wrote:
Which comment had 51? The two I see are 9 and 10. Does it show up different on the site?

Kryptonite wrote:
actuallydear wrote:
Maybe no one messaged a mod, but surely 51 people that took the time to 'like' my post about it being in poor taste trumps the 10 or so that 'liked' the couple defending the title?



The one thing I do want to respond to is your claim that 51 people have liked your post? That is a massive exaggeration. I did read the post since you mentioned it and 10 people have liked your post. That many people have also defended the title...

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Sorry to butt in here, but I just feel the need to defend actuallydear. The app only shows up to 10 likes and then stops there. If you view a user's profile on the website, you are able to see how many likes a user's post actually got. I stopped counting at about 25, so she definitely has well above 10 likes on her original post.

Not trying to add to the controversy - I just wanted to clarify that, in case each of you are using different ways of viewing the site and it's causing confusion/miscommunication.
I appreciate the information! TT updates so frequently that it's difficult to keep up.

My apologies to AD!

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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby FakingIt_MakingIt » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:33 am

I haven't watched today's video yet. But I'm not surprised they're going to do a D&C.
Jackson shouldn't be aware of the details. They're crappy parents. They really should just take a YouTube break.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby ApplePie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:35 am

HelloSweetie wrote:
gymchick43 wrote:5 min video today, Jared said they are preparing for a D&C tomorrow


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That's interesting, and tells me that Ellie isn't doing well emotionally (which I totally understand). She said a few days ago the plan was to stop the Progesterone and wait a week or two. Then the next day they have Misoprostal and are supposedly miscarrying, and then a D&C tomorrow. That's a lot more intervention in a short period of time than doctors usually like to do. Most patient women are desperate to get it over with, so I imagine Ellie is probably not doing that great. She may also not want to wait two weeks longer to start trying again. I remember that feeling all too well also.

Most people have to take time off work to deal with things like this, it really doesn't sit well with me that they are profiting off this. Jared had to put a vlog out I suppose, but I think he should just take a few days break.


I think her body may not be responding to the meds. I have a friend who recently was in the same situation as Ellie. Your beta levels (pregnancy hormone in your blood) should start decreasing almost immediately on the Misoprostal, but my friend's beta levels weren't. They kept going up. So they had to schedule a D&C a couple of days later. They did another ultrasound right before the D&C just to make sure the sac was still empty and it was. It was very traumatizing for her as it was her first pregnancy.

I can believe Ellie's had at least two beta tests done because my friend had her blood tested every other day.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby littlebaby » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:52 am

Very interested to see what the vlog will be tomorrow, if there is one at all. Everyone in the comments is saying to take a break. I don't think that'll be the case.


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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby HelloSweetie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:06 am

littlebaby wrote:Very interested to see what the vlog will be tomorrow, if there is one at all. Everyone in the comments is saying to take a break. I don't think that'll be the case.


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They know what tomorrow is going to entail, so if they planned on taking the day off they would have mentioned it today.

I think they should take a break, but won't.
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Re: E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby Shorty02 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:12 am

HelloSweetie wrote:
littlebaby wrote:Very interested to see what the vlog will be tomorrow, if there is one at all. Everyone in the comments is saying to take a break. I don't think that'll be the case.


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They know what tomorrow is going to entail, so if they planned on taking the day off they would have mentioned it today.

I think they should take a break, but won't.


They should have taken a break several times over the past year and didn't. They're not going to, because they need the money that this personal tragedy will bring in and because they have some weird pride thing about never skipping a day of vlogging. They live their lives for the vlogs now, there is no more reality.
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E+J: The Lessons of Karma - Part # 31

Postby littlebaby » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:17 am

Here's a small blip to talk about besides the miscarriage. We've talk about Calvin's wonky teeth plenty, but lately I've been noticing that Jackson's teeth aren't *that* different. They're definitely a little bit more spaced out, and I think being a year older makes them fit his face more, but it's just something I've noticed recently that no one else has mentioned. They have the same general shape and pattern, in a way. I still think Jackson is the cutest kid ever, I think his teeth just aren't as blatantly noticeable as Calvin's (plus Calvin's neck issues didn't/don't help his face shape in general either). Also, Calvin's teeth seem a lot whiter? Which is probably a good thing in general, but also makes them more noticeable. It makes me wonder how Calvin will look in just a year, but even at Calvin's age, Jackson's teeth were never a topic of conversation. I can't really pinpoint what I'm trying to say but I hope some of you see what I'm saying. Thoughts?

ETA: After looking at some more pictures, Calvin's teeth are just.. super big. And I think his head is a lot smaller. Jackson's teeth were smaller even at Calvin's age, which also helped him.

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170915/a4ab50358d00f31f27120cf32dd906fd.png[/img]

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170915/f25acd5d1b19b4060c080b8ae5f96ae5.png[/img]


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