Tania Licciardo-Toivola: Beans, fake routines and sleeping like sardines. | Part 4

[AllAboutTT2020]

[mamaKay072]

I was thinking of only one week !! Our resident NP has some awfully good ideas and is probably spot on and I never would have wondered about rickets but it is something to consider. TT will never do that. I do remember her saying Aph was a picky eater and the dr. said not to worry. I saw a foto of her really tiny with Roro and she was having a bottle. So for some reason Aph did not get as much breast milk as Golden Child is or some of the sibs. I am not so sure Pinnochio (sp) even notices her bowed legs. So many of the others have knees that are knocked but it looks like Paul my have them so heredity I guess wasnt good to them. I have been retired for 5 yrs and do not want to work hard so that is why I only want a week and for fun. Interesting post Ashley. Can't argue with a word.

Did you see Romeo's knock knees in the New Year vlog!? That child has a thigh gap!! No 16 year old should be that skinny!!!!!!!

[mamaKay072]

Did they at least take a shower after the hot tube filled with lake water?

One thing that bores me is how she "directs" every scene on camera! We already know is fake, don't need to show. You can just cut it off during editing, Taina! I still don't understand what you do exactly when you say you spend hours editing.

Was she actually talking about putting rabbit droppings into lollies? What mentally sane person would say such a thing to a 5 year old kid?


I doubt that all the food had been prepared at home. I bet they put the pies in the oven to warm them up.
Please, Taina, stop saying "we did", you did nothing!

In the house tour video, she says that the view will look stunning in the summer too, now she's saying everything is set to move to Australia and they are there just to say goodbye to some people.
Why didn't they say goodbye when they left for the worst tour of Europe ever? No, they go back to Finland, rent a house, buy things they had given away (another thing I really doubt!), just to say goodbye to some people!?



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yeah I highly doubt she sold everything like she claims! Someone should save their house tour video so we can track back and see what she kept.

[Wildebeast-cps]

This forum is so cumbersome to use as far as quoting someone. I’ll just add my random thoughts. I was looking back at old vids and saw Nef from only a year ago. Her teeth were fine so they rotted out in just a year. I said this before that somewhere I read TT, PT, TP said she had a cold when she was 6 months pregnant and that’s why her teeth rotted. If that’s the case, every kid in the world would have rotted teeth.

Called that right about KJ. Said we wouldn’t see him in his Bud Lightyear outfit for his birthday. We all know he didn’t really get that outfit, it was all for show,

Anyone notice how Romeo’s voice is changing? Getting deeper.

At least now that they are “settled” they look like they are eating much better. Maybe something like the thinning hair will get better. I don’t know much about vegan/plant based diets so I may be wrong. I would think that if it’s balanced with what they should have, there wouldn’t be a need for this mass quantities of vitamins she was pumping into everyone when they were in the road.

Aph’s legs? I was terribly bow legged as a child. It was nothing to be concerned about so maybe hers will straighten in time. I have hyperextended legs and arms so that may have had something to do with my bow leggedness.

Ever get checked for Ehlers Danlos Syndrome? It’s a connective tissue disorder that causes joint hypermobility and a host of other issues. It’s rare but may explain what you’ve experienced. Might be worth a google since it doesn’t end with just having hypermobile joints it causes other issues such as, but not limited to, every piece of connective tissue in the human body. Geneticists and rheumatologists Diagnose it most often. Also, you said yourself you weren’t vegan or living on the road eating tinned mushrooms with mayonnaise so I doubt your bowed legs had anything to do with Aph’s. Slightly comparing apples and oranges, since Pinocchio loved fruit so much I figured it would be a delightful example.

There’s no point in presuming my hypermobile joints, I’ve gotten along quite fine all my life with no issues. Besides, hyperextended legs make for great ballet feet, what some would kill for.
I wasn’t necessarily comparing my legs to Aph’s just making a comment and, really, none of us know for sure she has Rickets and hers could very well turn out fine. Heaven knows, she got lots of vitamin D with all the sun exposure during their travels.

[Ashley18032]

This forum is so cumbersome to use as far as quoting someone. I’ll just add my random thoughts. I was looking back at old vids and saw Nef from only a year ago. Her teeth were fine so they rotted out in just a year. I said this before that somewhere I read TT, PT, TP said she had a cold when she was 6 months pregnant and that’s why her teeth rotted. If that’s the case, every kid in the world would have rotted teeth.

Called that right about KJ. Said we wouldn’t see him in his Bud Lightyear outfit for his birthday. We all know he didn’t really get that outfit, it was all for show,

Anyone notice how Romeo’s voice is changing? Getting deeper.

At least now that they are “settled” they look like they are eating much better. Maybe something like the thinning hair will get better. I don’t know much about vegan/plant based diets so I may be wrong. I would think that if it’s balanced with what they should have, there wouldn’t be a need for this mass quantities of vitamins she was pumping into everyone when they were in the road.

Aph’s legs? I was terribly bow legged as a child. It was nothing to be concerned about so maybe hers will straighten in time. I have hyperextended legs and arms so that may have had something to do with my bow leggedness.

Ever get checked for Ehlers Danlos Syndrome? It’s a connective tissue disorder that causes joint hypermobility and a host of other issues. It’s rare but may explain what you’ve experienced. Might be worth a google since it doesn’t end with just having hypermobile joints it causes other issues such as, but not limited to, every piece of connective tissue in the human body. Geneticists and rheumatologists Diagnose it most often. Also, you said yourself you weren’t vegan or living on the road eating tinned mushrooms with mayonnaise so I doubt your bowed legs had anything to do with Aph’s. Slightly comparing apples and oranges, since Pinocchio loved fruit so much I figured it would be a delightful example.

There’s no point in presuming my hypermobile joints, I’ve gotten along quite fine all my life with no issues. Besides, hyperextended legs make for great ballet feet, what some would kill for.
I wasn’t necessarily comparing my legs to Aph’s just making a comment and, really, none of us know for sure she has Rickets and hers could very well turn out fine. Heaven knows, she got lots of vitamin D with all the sun exposure during their travels.

Ain’t that the truth!


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[meee meee]

I think it's the first video she watched about them. My first few videos I too thought that they were cute and a fascinating family, that's why I started watching them. It's probably been that way for a lot of us. But as time went on I started to question things, like why are they all wearing white shirts, what's their religion, why is taina obviously lying about stuff.

So yeah, if I would have done a reaction when watching my first video about them and there was nothing obvious like 6000 year old earth in it, I probably would have had a similar reaction to it.

[KarmaViolet]

I think it's the first video she watched about them. My first few videos I too thought that they were cute and a fascinating family, that's why I started watching them. It's probably been that way for a lot of us. But as time went on I started to question things, like why are they all wearing white shirts, what's their religion, why is taina obviously lying about stuff.

So yeah, if I would have done a reaction when watching my first video about them and there was nothing obvious like 6000 year old earth in it, I probably would have had a similar reaction to it.

Agreed! In the beginning it seemed like they were just this odd family with very strange routines and lifestyle but the longer you follow them, the more concerned you grow. It’s the little things - you watch something that seems odd but not harmful in any way but then there is one thing that makes you go hmm, I don’t think this is okay. Then you notice another and another and keep paying more attention to these and suddenly you have realised that Taina is fully insane and the children are being neglected and that the wholesome life she’s trying to portray is entirely constructed of lies.


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[Wildebeast-cps]

I think it's the first video she watched about them. My first few videos I too thought that they were cute and a fascinating family, that's why I started watching them. It's probably been that way for a lot of us. But as time went on I started to question things, like why are they all wearing white shirts, what's their religion, why is taina obviously lying about stuff.

So yeah, if I would have done a reaction when watching my first video about them and there was nothing obvious like 6000 year old earth in it, I probably would have had a similar reaction to it.

Agreed! In the beginning it seemed like they were just this odd family with very strange routines and lifestyle but the longer you follow them, the more concerned you grow. It’s the little things - you watch something that seems odd but not harmful in any way but then there is one thing that makes you go hmm, I don’t think this is okay. Then you notice another and another and keep paying more attention to these and suddenly you have realised that Taina is fully insane and the children are being neglected and that the wholesome life she’s trying to portray is entirely constructed of lies.


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Yes, things started adding up for me and it was with the littles. Nef was too old for diapers and a bottle, said babies didn’t sleep with bottles, she used cloth diapers but you only ever saw them in disposables and THEN, all four of them lying on the blanket and not moving off.

[Charleston3]

Sorry for double posting, but here is my full post, ignore the one above I have wasn't finished and can't delete it now.. This forum sucks sometimes

Sorry, no offense, but you are the one confused. You see, Its true that Pauls last name was Licciardo-Smith (was Smith but Licciardo was added after being adopted by Marie Licciardo) so technically that was the families last name (from the time T and Paul married until last year)... however that does NOT change the fact that Tainas maiden name was Toivola. Toivola is her family's name, thats why she likes it to be included. You are correct in that they used Licciardo-Toivola as a stage name until recently when it was legally changed to Licciardo-Toivola (as you can see by looking up the Finnish registry). Maybe, what you assumed is ehat T hopes, that people will not realize she is a Toivola by birth and therefore they wont make the connection between her and Jennas parents

Ok girls, whatever their real last name might be, I truly don't believe that Leo's and Jenna's parents are relatives! Someone from Finland mentioned before that Toivola is a quite common family name there, just like Miller or Smith in English speaking countries.. And where do you know from what Jenna's parents last names are?
They met each other on a church's youth night (when she was 14 and he 16) and started texting later. They talk about it in their love story Video:


Jenna lived with her mother and stepfather at that time. There is also a Video on Leo's channel where he introduces her mother and stepfather. They seem like nice and decent people. Her mother mentions the church as one of the most important things in her life and that she doesn't like the idea so much that Jenna plans to emigrate to Australia.
Another interesting thing about the video above is that Leo tells us he wasn't allowed to meet one to one with girls at that time (skip to minute 2:10!) for his own safety.. Well not surprised at all that Cleo's treated like a princess in a cage..
But Leo clearly found his wife by himself and later told Taina about that girl.
Sorry but I can't find any signs of being relatives or anything like that..

And now all that church stuff, I thought they made clear they don't like churches, but a few years ago Leo seemed to participate in a lot church activities..
I think their true believes will stay with them and I have no problem with that. Taina's child upbringing examples are bad enough, I don't need religious education efforts by her


King James birthday presents comparing to the other little ones are just sad He turns 4, an age where you actually start to understand what a birthday is and he got the same presents as Omega. Four toy animals, two of them being chickens... Really T? Your little boy loves Monster Trucks, dangerous animals and maybe reading and books (at least more than Nef haha)..
I would have had so many nice (and not expensive) ideas for him, but all Taina's giving him to feel special that day is an ugly cake, the same party omega got and the same toys omega got... Of which they already have tons of.

I'm telling you, children are highly sensitive to fairness and I am sure hers realise in an very young age who mommy's favourites are...
That dress and accessories Aph wore on her birthday was bought in Disneyland just like that while KJ never got his Buzz Lightning costume and was put in the same Ewok costume instead like his little brother and sister..

Look up the top 10 most common surnames in Finland...you will not find Toivola there. Matter of fact, you won't find it even in the top 20! There are 5.5 million people in Finland and only about 2,000 with the last name Toivola. They almost all know each other. You're not going to convince me that Leo just happened to meet and fall on love with a girl who had the exact same last name. If you rewatch the video of Jennas moms house (while she was dating Leo) you will see Toivola listed on the door. Check her mom's accounts, Toivola. It's totally legal in Finland to marry your first cousin.

While it doesn't make their marriage more acceptable, it is possible that Jenna assumed her step fathers last name and that Leo's family are related to him meaning that they wouldn't be biologically related but it's still morally concerning because I believe (though not 100% sure) that Jenna's younger sister is her mother and step-fathers child so Leo would be biologically related to her and Jenna's step-father.

[Dru55]

Hello everyone. I know TT has gone quiet, but hope everyone is well here. I am getting over cold, sinus infection etc and looking forward to spring. Had enough of winter! How is everyone?

[KarmaViolet]

[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202001 ... 5b8d43.jpg[/IMG]

I don’t have an opinion on this “Leo and Jenna are related!!!” thing, it could be real but I don’t think it is unless we get clear proof. Obviously, knowing the family, that’s never going to happen.

However, I decided to look up people in Finland with the last name Toivola. I’ll translate this screenshot to the best of my abilities.

Nykyisenä nimenä = as a current name
Entisenä nimenä = as a previous name (maiden name)
Kuolleilla = name of someone who’s passed away
Yhteensä = total

Lkm/lukumäärä = amount
Miehet = men
Naiset = women
Suomessa = in Finland
Ulkomailla = outside of Finland

[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202001 ... 525220.jpg[/IMG]

This screenshot shows the statistics of the name Licciardo-Toivola which apparently is their real last name (vs. Licciardo-Smith)

If Tapatalk won’t show these photos I will scream.


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[sweetpeatoivola]

Wow! I'm assuming all 13 of them are only this family. But I think searching for Toivola alone would help more than Licciardo-Toivola.

[KarmaViolet]

Wow! I'm assuming all 13 of them are only this family. But I think searching for Toivola alone would help more than Licciardo-Toivola.

I’m not sure if the picture is showing up, but the first screenshot is when searching Toivola alone!


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[draconessa]

Hello Dru55 - hope you get better quickly. This winter in UK is so far as no winter. I miss Polish mountains in the snow:) I watched the New Years vlogs from TT and nearly enjoyed them. It was nice to see this family livng in better conditions, then RV ( still too small, but more like home) and eating better foods. Pies looked quite nice, and can not blame them for snacks You need to have some fun on New year's Eve - seems they enjoyed it. What makes me sad, I have not seen Leo and Jenna - you would think they would come and visit their family and spend this night together. There is definitely some sort of conflict going on! Well, we can only wait to see, what comes next...if anything

[chocolatelover711]

This forum is so cumbersome to use as far as quoting someone. I’ll just add my random thoughts. I was looking back at old vids and saw Nef from only a year ago. Her teeth were fine so they rotted out in just a year. I said this before that somewhere I read TT, PT, TP said she had a cold when she was 6 months pregnant and that’s why her teeth rotted. If that’s the case, every kid in the world would have rotted teeth.

Called that right about KJ. Said we wouldn’t see him in his Bud Lightyear outfit for his birthday. We all know he didn’t really get that outfit, it was all for show,

Anyone notice how Romeo’s voice is changing? Getting deeper.

At least now that they are “settled” they look like they are eating much better. Maybe something like the thinning hair will get better. I don’t know much about vegan/plant based diets so I may be wrong. I would think that if it’s balanced with what they should have, there wouldn’t be a need for this mass quantities of vitamins she was pumping into everyone when they were in the road.

Aph’s legs? I was terribly bow legged as a child. It was nothing to be concerned about so maybe hers will straighten in time. I have hyperextended legs and arms so that may have had something to do with my bow leggedness.

As vegans they will always need a B-12 supplement as there is no where else to get that except from animal products. Also, living in Finland where there is little sun, they will need vitamin D. Perhaps once they move to Australia that will change. I would never choose veganism myself but I know many vegans who are perfectly healthy. Famous ones include Mayim Bialik, and Ellen. I don't see any evidence of poor nutrition at all in Taina's kids but people seem to critique her a lot for what they eat. On their trip they ate some national dishes that were non-vegan and she explained why but she has 2 year olds that like kidney beans, broccoli, and brussel sprouts. I mean come on.

[Damom1]

This forum is so cumbersome to use as far as quoting someone. I’ll just add my random thoughts. I was looking back at old vids and saw Nef from only a year ago. Her teeth were fine so they rotted out in just a year. I said this before that somewhere I read TT, PT, TP said she had a cold when she was 6 months pregnant and that’s why her teeth rotted. If that’s the case, every kid in the world would have rotted teeth.

Called that right about KJ. Said we wouldn’t see him in his Bud Lightyear outfit for his birthday. We all know he didn’t really get that outfit, it was all for show,

Anyone notice how Romeo’s voice is changing? Getting deeper.

At least now that they are “settled” they look like they are eating much better. Maybe something like the thinning hair will get better. I don’t know much about vegan/plant based diets so I may be wrong. I would think that if it’s balanced with what they should have, there wouldn’t be a need for this mass quantities of vitamins she was pumping into everyone when they were in the road.

Aph’s legs? I was terribly bow legged as a child. It was nothing to be concerned about so maybe hers will straighten in time. I have hyperextended legs and arms so that may have had something to do with my bow leggedness.

As vegans they will always need a B-12 supplement as there is no where else to get that except from animal products. Also, living in Finland where there is little sun, they will need vitamin D. Perhaps once they move to Australia that will change. I would never choose veganism myself but I know many vegans who are perfectly healthy. Famous ones include Mayim Bialik, and Ellen. I don't see any evidence of poor nutrition at all in Taina's kids but people seem to critique her a lot for what they eat. On their trip they ate some national dishes that were non-vegan and she explained why but she has 2 year olds that like kidney beans, broccoli, and brussel sprouts. I mean come on.

Of course they like broccoli, Brussels and kidneys....they are HUNGRY. When u are HUNGRY, you eat what you are given. Have you noticed how they "steal", whine for onions, spinach etc while the family cooked or how they shovel the food in? For some videos, TT Shows huge portions (like her breakfast video where they were served avocado toast, tomato toast, oatmeal with berries and chia pudding with granola) but in other videos you see how small kids are served very small portions (like the "vegan wraps") or everyone in the family has too little (like the bananas on the beach for breakfast-1-2 bananas each certainly doesnt keep one full til lunch or the mayonnaise filled mushroom caps video in which TT had 1 mushroom and RoRo as a growing young man only got 2, KJ was still hungry but there was not more to be had.

[lefargen97]

i understand why someone would choose to be vegan if they have ethical concerns with eating animal products. but i don't think that is the case for this family, especially because they were willing to eat non-vegan foods on their trip through europe. so what is the point? what is the point of starving your children for a lifestyle that you don't believe in? they clearly don't know enough about nutrition to feed themselves a plant-based diet in a way that is healthy and doesn't starve them. i feel bad for vegans that actually believe in the cause and are dedicated to it because people like tania who aren't committed join in because it's trendy and make them look bad.

[chocolatelover711]

This forum is so cumbersome to use as far as quoting someone. I’ll just add my random thoughts. I was looking back at old vids and saw Nef from only a year ago. Her teeth were fine so they rotted out in just a year. I said this before that somewhere I read TT, PT, TP said she had a cold when she was 6 months pregnant and that’s why her teeth rotted. If that’s the case, every kid in the world would have rotted teeth.

Called that right about KJ. Said we wouldn’t see him in his Bud Lightyear outfit for his birthday. We all know he didn’t really get that outfit, it was all for show,

Anyone notice how Romeo’s voice is changing? Getting deeper.

At least now that they are “settled” they look like they are eating much better. Maybe something like the thinning hair will get better. I don’t know much about vegan/plant based diets so I may be wrong. I would think that if it’s balanced with what they should have, there wouldn’t be a need for this mass quantities of vitamins she was pumping into everyone when they were in the road.

Aph’s legs? I was terribly bow legged as a child. It was nothing to be concerned about so maybe hers will straighten in time. I have hyperextended legs and arms so that may have had something to do with my bow leggedness.

As vegans they will always need a B-12 supplement as there is no where else to get that except from animal products. Also, living in Finland where there is little sun, they will need vitamin D. Perhaps once they move to Australia that will change. I would never choose veganism myself but I know many vegans who are perfectly healthy. Famous ones include Mayim Bialik, and Ellen. I don't see any evidence of poor nutrition at all in Taina's kids but people seem to critique her a lot for what they eat. On their trip they ate some national dishes that were non-vegan and she explained why but she has 2 year olds that like kidney beans, broccoli, and brussel sprouts. I mean come on.

Of course they like broccoli, Brussels and kidneys....they are HUNGRY. When u are HUNGRY, you eat what you are given. Have you noticed how they "steal", whine for onions, spinach etc while the family cooked or how they shovel the food in? For some videos, TT Shows huge portions (like her breakfast video where they were served avocado toast, tomato toast, oatmeal with berries and chia pudding with granola) but in other videos you see how small kids are served very small portions (like the "vegan wraps") or everyone in the family has too little (like the bananas on the beach for breakfast-1-2 bananas each certainly doesnt keep one full til lunch or the mayonnaise filled mushroom caps video in which TT had 1 mushroom and RoRo as a growing young man only got 2, KJ was still hungry but there was not more to be had.

Sorry but not buying it. I sincerely doubt they show fake amounts of food just for some videos. If anything I noticed the amount of food for the youngest ones seemed too much- way more than a baby often eats who has half a jar of mushed carrots of something. The video where she showed her grocery haul seemed quite realistic and I doubt her kids were all standing there thinking "gee wish we could always buy so much food." Other than being a bit pale (there is little sun in Finland) they seem healthy. I'm not a fan of some things she does or her vagueness about certain things but people over analyze way too much about their food on here. The kids are clearly healthy.

[Wildebeast-cps]

This forum is so cumbersome to use as far as quoting someone. I’ll just add my random thoughts. I was looking back at old vids and saw Nef from only a year ago. Her teeth were fine so they rotted out in just a year. I said this before that somewhere I read TT, PT, TP said she had a cold when she was 6 months pregnant and that’s why her teeth rotted. If that’s the case, every kid in the world would have rotted teeth.

Called that right about KJ. Said we wouldn’t see him in his Bud Lightyear outfit for his birthday. We all know he didn’t really get that outfit, it was all for show,

Anyone notice how Romeo’s voice is changing? Getting deeper.

At least now that they are “settled” they look like they are eating much better. Maybe something like the thinning hair will get better. I don’t know much about vegan/plant based diets so I may be wrong. I would think that if it’s balanced with what they should have, there wouldn’t be a need for this mass quantities of vitamins she was pumping into everyone when they were in the road.

Aph’s legs? I was terribly bow legged as a child. It was nothing to be concerned about so maybe hers will straighten in time. I have hyperextended legs and arms so that may have had something to do with my bow leggedness.

As vegans they will always need a B-12 supplement as there is no where else to get that except from animal products. Also, living in Finland where there is little sun, they will need vitamin D. Perhaps once they move to Australia that will change. I would never choose veganism myself but I know many vegans who are perfectly healthy. Famous ones include Mayim Bialik, and Ellen. I don't see any evidence of poor nutrition at all in Taina's kids but people seem to critique her a lot for what they eat. On their trip they ate some national dishes that were non-vegan and she explained why but she has 2 year olds that like kidney beans, broccoli, and brussel sprouts. I mean come on.

I understand about the B-12 and Vitamin D, I was questioning the large amount she seemed to be giving them,

Is this day 3 with no video? She must be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to come up with one. Also, it seems that with the New Year’s Eve video, her time frame is back on track.

[chocolatelover711]

This forum is so cumbersome to use as far as quoting someone. I’ll just add my random thoughts. I was looking back at old vids and saw Nef from only a year ago. Her teeth were fine so they rotted out in just a year. I said this before that somewhere I read TT, PT, TP said she had a cold when she was 6 months pregnant and that’s why her teeth rotted. If that’s the case, every kid in the world would have rotted teeth.

Called that right about KJ. Said we wouldn’t see him in his Bud Lightyear outfit for his birthday. We all know he didn’t really get that outfit, it was all for show,

Anyone notice how Romeo’s voice is changing? Getting deeper.

At least now that they are “settled” they look like they are eating much better. Maybe something like the thinning hair will get better. I don’t know much about vegan/plant based diets so I may be wrong. I would think that if it’s balanced with what they should have, there wouldn’t be a need for this mass quantities of vitamins she was pumping into everyone when they were in the road.

Aph’s legs? I was terribly bow legged as a child. It was nothing to be concerned about so maybe hers will straighten in time. I have hyperextended legs and arms so that may have had something to do with my bow leggedness.

As vegans they will always need a B-12 supplement as there is no where else to get that except from animal products. Also, living in Finland where there is little sun, they will need vitamin D. Perhaps once they move to Australia that will change. I would never choose veganism myself but I know many vegans who are perfectly healthy. Famous ones include Mayim Bialik, and Ellen. I don't see any evidence of poor nutrition at all in Taina's kids but people seem to critique her a lot for what they eat. On their trip they ate some national dishes that were non-vegan and she explained why but she has 2 year olds that like kidney beans, broccoli, and brussel sprouts. I mean come on.

I understand about the B-12 and Vitamin D, I was questioning the large amount she seemed to be giving them,

Is this day 3 with no video? She must be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to come up with one. Also, it seems that with the New Year’s Eve video, her time frame is back on track.

Yes the timeline does seem legit now. I imagine they are now enroute to Australia although it is quite dangerous there now with the fires so perhaps they have delayed again. Who could blame them? They do eat a lot of food- it bothers me that others on this forum seem to falsely think the kids are starving or something. Or unhealthy. Clearly they aren't.