Narcissistic Tendencies

[actuallydear]

The subject of certain vloggers (and their families!) having narcissistic tendencies comes up rather frequently in the DB and EJ boards, and this is a topic that interests me greatly, and would love to have a designated place to expound on our thoughts and theories.

Ruby and Ellie have narcissistic qualities but it is hard to say whether they are simply learned traits from their narcissistic mother, Jennifer, or whether they themselves are true narcissists.

These two in particular seek so much approval from their mother that they are willing to follow her word of instruction to a T, so this is why I struggle with knowing if their narcissistic actions and behaviors are blind desperate attempts for approval, or whether they are really narcissists. Hard to say. Ellie is quite simple and I doubt has the ability to dig deep into the family dynamics, so I'm not sure we will ever see her break the cycle and see a change from her, however harmful it is.


For those unfamiliar with narcissistic mothers, here's some info:
http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothe ... c-mothers/

[Sarai]

I'm confused why people think Jennifer is a narcissist. Any time I've seen her in the vlogs she seemed nice...

[staceymj]

I think Ellie is spoilt and the money and "fame" that YouTube brings her has completely gone to her head and she's simply spoilt and up herself. When they first started YouTube and when Jackson was a baby she was a completely different person.


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[actuallydear]

I'm confused why people think Jennifer is a narcissist. Any time I've seen her in the vlogs she seemed nice...

That is their Schtick - appear perfect and charming and would do anything do you. However, they are the opposite and very nasty behind closed doors.


Once you have had personal dealings with this disorder the signs are very unmistakably spotted.

I think Ellie is spoilt and the money and "fame" that YouTube brings her has completely gone to her head and she's simply spoilt and up herself. When they first started YouTube and when Jackson was a baby she was a completely different person.

Oh, for sure she presented differently back then, but thinking back and even watching the "old" Ellie, she was still the same. It is more pronounced now but it was still always there. Like you said, it could be that the fame has gone to her head and she gives less of a fuck about concealing the bad because her follower$$$ are still around.

[Sarai]

How do you know how she is behind doors tho? I think it was Ruby who posted the vlog of them on holiday and Jennifer and Chad were very likable and normal. I think Ellie is just a spoiled brat more than anything.

[actuallydear]

She's made a lot of snide remarks, is very cold towards her children even when they are bending over backward to appease her. There's a lot of joke video footage from when the kids were little and her behaviour was the same then... Closed doors enough for you?

There are plenty of instances that have been discussed on these boards throughout the years, maybe over the weekend I'll go back so I can add them to this topic unless others have better recollection.

[just_me]

I posted this on Monday in the E&J forum, so apologies if you've already seen it. It's taken from the Wikipedia page for narcissistic parents. It fits Ellie very well from what I read in the E&J forum. 


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[actuallydear]

bumping this topic, as the discussion in bonnie's thread has mentioned narcissism... if anyone would like to further said discussion, here would be a great place to do so.

[tratra58]

bumping this topic, as the discussion in bonnie's thread has mentioned narcissism... if anyone would like to further said discussion, here would be a great place to do so.

Thanks. It can be a touchy subject and sometimes people bring in their own experiences with their parents.

Personally, I see this as a cultural family dynamics with the Mormons and families are very close. Generations ago parents had a more dictator type relationship vs today it is more democratic and adult children have a say. I just think Utah has preserved the old family ways where mom was the patriarch. This can be good and bad, but it appears to work for them.

I see Ruby as an oddball, a bit lazy and she has changed some with YouTube comments for the better. Ellie is spoiled and reminds me of Eve. The family and Jared enables Ellie to act bratty and at times mean and even with negative YouTube comments she doesn't change and Jared really should talk to her since vlogging is their livelyhood. Bonnie is a people pleaser and the sister or daughter most wish to have. You feel she really cares about others and I attribute Joel to her caring nature.

Yet, overall they all get along including the in-laws which isn't always common today. My other thought is spouses make a difference too with Kevin focus on his career and Jared who does as Ellie dictates.

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[HelloSweetie]

bumping this topic, as the discussion in bonnie's thread has mentioned narcissism... if anyone would like to further said discussion, here would be a great place to do so.

Thanks. It can be a touchy subject and sometimes people bring in their own experiences with their parents.

Personally, I see this as a cultural family dynamics with the Mormons and families are very close. Generations ago parents had a more dictator type relationship vs today it is more democratic and adult children have a say. I just think Utah has preserved the old family ways where mom was the patriarch. This can be good and bad, but it appears to work for them.

I see Ruby as an oddball, a bit lazy and she has changed some with YouTube comments for the better. Ellie is spoiled and reminds me of Eve. The family and Jared enables Ellie to act bratty and at times mean and even with negative YouTube comments she doesn't change and Jared really should talk to her since vlogging is their livelyhood. Bonnie is a people pleaser and the sister or daughter most wish to have. You feel she really cares about others and I attribute Joel to her caring nature.

Yet, overall they all get along including the in-laws which isn't always common today. My other thought is spouses make a difference too with Kevin focus on his career and Jared who does as Ellie dictates.

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Narcissism is about more than control though. It's the complete lack of empathy that Ellie appears to have that makes me think she may have more issues going on than just being spoiled and ignorant. I agree that Jared could push Ellie a little harder and try to give her perspective, but I don't necessarily think there is any getting through to her. When people are speaking to her about emotional things, Ellie doesn't even seem to be listening to them. Instead she seems like she's thinking of what she wants to say, and waiting for a pause where she can jump in! That, and the way she's started favouring Calvin, makes me TBH j it's more than just normal Mormon behaviour. Narcissist will make one child the "scapegoat" at the expense of another one. Plus children are only interesting if they somehow help to benefit the Narc's image. Jackson favours his dad, while Cal favours Ellie. Hence him being the golden child.... until he grows up a bit more that is.

[tratra58]

bumping this topic, as the discussion in bonnie's thread has mentioned narcissism... if anyone would like to further said discussion, here would be a great place to do so.

Thanks. It can be a touchy subject and sometimes people bring in their own experiences with their parents.

Personally, I see this as a cultural family dynamics with the Mormons and families are very close. Generations ago parents had a more dictator type relationship vs today it is more democratic and adult children have a say. I just think Utah has preserved the old family ways where mom was the patriarch. This can be good and bad, but it appears to work for them.

I see Ruby as an oddball, a bit lazy and she has changed some with YouTube comments for the better. Ellie is spoiled and reminds me of Eve. The family and Jared enables Ellie to act bratty and at times mean and even with negative YouTube comments she doesn't change and Jared really should talk to her since vlogging is their livelyhood. Bonnie is a people pleaser and the sister or daughter most wish to have. You feel she really cares about others and I attribute Joel to her caring nature.

Yet, overall they all get along including the in-laws which isn't always common today. My other thought is spouses make a difference too with Kevin focus on his career and Jared who does as Ellie dictates.

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Narcissism is about more than control though. It's the complete lack of empathy that Ellie appears to have that makes me think she may have more issues going on than just being spoiled and ignorant. I agree that Jared could push Ellie a little harder and try to give her perspective, but I don't necessarily think there is any getting through to her. When people are speaking to her about emotional things, Ellie doesn't even seem to be listening to them. Instead she seems like she's thinking of what she wants to say, and waiting for a pause where she can jump in! That, and the way she's started favouring Calvin, makes me TBH j it's more than just normal Mormon behaviour. Narcissist will make one child the "scapegoat" at the expense of another one. Plus children are only interesting if they somehow help to benefit the Narc's image. Jackson favours his dad, while Cal favours Ellie. Hence him being the golden child.... until he grows up a bit more that is.

You could be right. Ellie is my least favorite and yesterday's vlog with her behaviors at the birthday party said a lot about her lack of giving nature and just plain mean. I think she puts herself first most, if not all of the time and we see this on the vlogs. So I can only image how she is off camera...not good.



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[Cgl33]

An important example of narcissism was in today's vlog when she asked Bonnie's kids if they are happy or sad to see their parents. Wtf?! She's that narcissistic that she's hoping they like Ellie better than their own mother? That's messed up.

Bonnie isn't doing her any favors if she lets that slide without saying something.

[JoCo 89]

The heart of narcissism is: lack of empathy.

[JoCo 89]

"Symptoms include an excessive need for admiration, disregard for others' feelings, an inability to handle any criticism, and a sense of entitlement."
Ellie definitely shows all of these tendencies, and should see a psychologist or psychiatrist for diagnosis and treatment. Her narcissism likely stems at least partially from her spiritually- and emotionally-unhealthy upbringing. So the origins are likely not her fault. However, her current unhealthy beliefs and behaviors ARE her responsibility. Likewise, it is her responsibility to get appropriate treatment, starting with the traumas/wounds that may have precipitated her narcissistic tendencies...

[madi_b_123]

As a psychology major, my biggest pet peeve is when people (who have absolutely not qualifications to do so) diagnose over the Internet. Yes, Ellie may show some of these symptoms, but who are we to assume someone has a serious mental illness?


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[JoCo 89]

As a psychology major, my biggest pet peeve is when people (who have absolutely not qualifications to do so) diagnose over the Internet. Yes, Ellie may show some of these symptoms, but who are we to assume someone has a serious mental illness?


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Fair point. Yes, there are few who are actually qualified to diagnose personality disorders and mental illness. This is why I recommended she see a psychologist or psychiatrist. But I think it can be appropriate for the average person to point out "tendencies of or toward" certain personality disorders or mental illnesses.

[HelloSweetie]

As a psychology major, my biggest pet peeve is when people (who have absolutely not qualifications to do so) diagnose over the Internet. Yes, Ellie may show some of these symptoms, but who are we to assume someone has a serious mental illness?


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It's the symptoms that are being discussed.... hence the word "tendencies."

You don't have to be a psych major to recognize someone with mental illness, just as you don't have to have children to know how to properly care for them.

We all have opinions, some with more insight/education/experience behind them, but ultimately everyone is welcome to express that opinion. Especially when it's based on something we see in the actual vlogs.

[Scar2016]

I'd say a pretty big qualification for recognizing narcissistic tendencies is having lived with a SO or been brought up by one. That and even a smidgen of research doth not make it rocket science.

Also, can someone do a summary of Jennifer's traits? Thanks in advance

[actuallydear]

Hello Sweetie might! She's seen more of Jennifer than I care to.

[HelloSweetie]

Hello Sweetie might! She's seen more of Jennifer than I care to.

I'm rusty on my Mama Griff now because I haven't watched in forever. From what I've seen in the flashback clips that have been posted though, and things I've heard, she maintained a very tight level of control on the children. When we watch Ruby and Ellie, I think we are seeing what Jennifer was like back in the day. Just as we saw Ellie push Jackson away after the birth of Calvin, there is a notable flashback where baby Ellie is brought home and Ruby is dismissed with a harsh tone by her mother. A couple examples of Jennifer's controlling and manipulative behaviour are that the Bonnie and Julie had to share a winter coat and Bonnie had to wait months for the Toothfairy to come. She also made Joel pay for the sisters to accompany Bonnie on their dates, and did her best to run him off. They never said it was Chad that was setting forth and enforcing these rules, Bonnie and Joel were very clear that it was Jennifer. It doesn't seem that any of the other girls (or boyfriends of Bonnie) had the chaperone requirement. There are way more specific examples, but I would have to go back and watch, but Bonnie definitely seems to have an increased awareness of what might have been strange and shares more stories from the past. There have been numerous posts in the E&J thread discussing/detailing this though if anyone wants to find them. Whatshesaid has a pretty interesting take on Grandma Griff as well.

That said, Jennifer really does seem to be a warm Grandmother at times, but at times a different side of her comes through. How she was with the house builders or talking about the guns that Christmas. The condescending tone we've seen her use at times with Joel. This makes me wonder how much of her kind and gentle demeanour is put on for the cameras. Jennifer did play an active part in encouraging Julie to breastfeed Linc that one time, and I feel like most mothers would show concern for their daughter's feelings and shut that down rather than grab the vlogging camera. It was an odd moment, and if I remember right it was Chad and Beau that seemed aware it was a dangerous idea. There was also the whole event around Jennifer shaving her head, and how it appeared Bonnie was deliberately left out and didn't hear about it until after. Jennifer, particularly with Bonnie, doesn't seem too concerned about protecting her daughters' feelings.

All this said, the daughters definitely cater to her and seem to view her as the ultimate authority. They are desperate to please her in a way that just can't be healthy. It isn't their parents' home, tradition, opinion, ways... it's always their mother's. Chad is rarely spoken of, and he's the one that appears to be the one who is truly thoughtful and sensitive to his children. Daughters ordinarily are closer to their fathers than their mothers. There was definitely something different with the Griffith dynamic, and I don't feel it was just Jennifer being a kind and gentle parent.