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MommaLindsey2 wrote:I'm getting away from the baptism talk because religion is so foreign to me, I didn't even watch that video.
I know this has been discussed before and some people disagree but I absolutely hate the fact that Bonnie doesn't put her kids in pre-k. Her only real reasoning is she is selfish and wants to keep them home with her longer.
Meanwhile the lumps are getting attacked because people don't think Ollie will get to stay in pre-k and they have pulled him out early one day. At least he is actually IN pre-k. Yes I know there is a vast difference between Ollie and Bostons language and cognitive abilities. Yes the lumps are shitty parents and Bonnie is a better parent, just not when it comes to safety. I bet Boston doesn't know colors, counting, or letters either though...I thought maybe she would actually put him in pre-k though since e+j put Jackson in.
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I really wish she would send Boston to preK. He's wanted to go to school since Cody started. And I think Boston would really do awesome at school. I wonder if that's the norm for them? PreK is basically considered a "must" in my area.
MommaLindsey2 wrote:I'm getting away from the baptism talk because religion is so foreign to me, I didn't even watch that video.
I know this has been discussed before and some people disagree but I absolutely hate the fact that Bonnie doesn't put her kids in pre-k. Her only real reasoning is she is selfish and wants to keep them home with her longer.
Meanwhile the lumps are getting attacked because people don't think Ollie will get to stay in pre-k and they have pulled him out early one day. At least he is actually IN pre-k. Yes I know there is a vast difference between Ollie and Bostons language and cognitive abilities. Yes the lumps are shitty parents and Bonnie is a better parent, just not when it comes to safety. I bet Boston doesn't know colors, counting, or letters either though...I thought maybe she would actually put him in pre-k though since e+j put Jackson in.
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I don't know about letters, but he does know his colours.
Oliver has had two stay at home parents his entire life and appears to know nothing. It's actually quite shocking and I'm still not so sure there isn't something wrong there. Boston on the other hand appears to be clever, well spoken, curious, and creative. He should probably go to preschool, but not all kids do and that's ok. I would have no issue with Ollie staying home if he didn't desperately need the help.
I know you're annoyed that you're often the only one defending DB, but I feel the criticism of Daily Bumps is valid. Plus most of the criticism got worse when he went for one day and they pulled him out to go to an interview at Disney, and now he's on a trip. It's only part-time and he's already barely there. He desperately needs the help, and they aren't taking it seriously. Their solution is to just hold him back a year, and believe me, if Bonnie decided to keep Boston home until he was 6 this board would explode.
It's apples to oranges in my opinion.
And we all know she has safety issues, but DB are actually worse. They just have so many other things to talk about that it isn't often touched on
MommaLindsey2 wrote:I'm getting away from the baptism talk because religion is so foreign to me, I didn't even watch that video.
I know this has been discussed before and some people disagree but I absolutely hate the fact that Bonnie doesn't put her kids in pre-k. Her only real reasoning is she is selfish and wants to keep them home with her longer.
Meanwhile the lumps are getting attacked because people don't think Ollie will get to stay in pre-k and they have pulled him out early one day. At least he is actually IN pre-k. Yes I know there is a vast difference between Ollie and Bostons language and cognitive abilities. Yes the lumps are shitty parents and Bonnie is a better parent, just not when it comes to safety. I bet Boston doesn't know colors, counting, or letters either though...I thought maybe she would actually put him in pre-k though since e+j put Jackson in.
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I really wish she would send Boston to preK. He's wanted to go to school since Cody started. And I think Boston would really do awesome at school. I wonder if that's the norm for them? PreK is basically considered a "must" in my area.
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It seems to be the norm. Makes sense given the lower than average Kindergarten entry expectations.
Preschool isn't a must in my area. It's maybe 50 percent? I think this is because it isn't publicly funded. I expect it isn't funded in UT and the larger one income families probably don't see it as a necessary expense.
MommaLindsey2 wrote:I'm getting away from the baptism talk because religion is so foreign to me, I didn't even watch that video.
I know this has been discussed before and some people disagree but I absolutely hate the fact that Bonnie doesn't put her kids in pre-k. Her only real reasoning is she is selfish and wants to keep them home with her longer.
Meanwhile the lumps are getting attacked because people don't think Ollie will get to stay in pre-k and they have pulled him out early one day. At least he is actually IN pre-k. Yes I know there is a vast difference between Ollie and Bostons language and cognitive abilities. Yes the lumps are shitty parents and Bonnie is a better parent, just not when it comes to safety. I bet Boston doesn't know colors, counting, or letters either though...I thought maybe she would actually put him in pre-k though since e+j put Jackson in.
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I really wish she would send Boston to preK. He's wanted to go to school since Cody started. And I think Boston would really do awesome at school. I wonder if that's the norm for them? PreK is basically considered a "must" in my area.
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It seems to be the norm. Makes sense given the lower than average Kindergarten entry expectations.
Preschool isn't a must in my area. It's maybe 50 percent? I think this is because it isn't publicly funded. I expect it isn't funded in UT and the larger one income families probably don't see it as a necessary expense.
That makes a lot of sense. Seems so foreign to me lol. It's so competitive here to get our preschoolers into a really good school. But I probably live in a stupid, over-privileged bubble here.
When I was watching today's vlog, it occurred to me that when Bonnie and Joel were talking to the children about making friends, being kind, etc etc, how i instinctually thought, "is this necessary? All kids are told this..." then immediately, I realized that no, most likely a LOT of children do not have these little discussions about being kind humans. What a shame for the world, but good that B&J take the time to talk to their children about it, and leave it in the vlog. Maybe other children who are watching YT, and perhaps have less involved parents (whatever the reason may be), and that may make some difference in how they act.
PostyMcPosterston wrote:
I really wish she would send Boston to preK. He's wanted to go to school since Cody started. And I think Boston would really do awesome at school. I wonder if that's the norm for them? PreK is basically considered a "must" in my area.
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It seems to be the norm. Makes sense given the lower than average Kindergarten entry expectations.
Preschool isn't a must in my area. It's maybe 50 percent? I think this is because it isn't publicly funded. I expect it isn't funded in UT and the larger one income families probably don't see it as a necessary expense.
That makes a lot of sense. Seems so foreign to me lol. It's so competitive here to get our preschoolers into a really good school. But I probably live in a stupid, over-privileged bubble here.
When I was watching today's vlog, it occurred to me that when Bonnie and Joel were talking to the children about making friends, being kind, etc etc, how i instinctually thought, "is this necessary? All kids are told this..." then immediately, I realized that no, most likely a LOT of children do not have these little discussions about being kind humans. What a shame for the world, but good that B&J take the time to talk to their children about it, and leave it in the vlog. Maybe other children who are watching YT, and perhaps have less involved parents (whatever the reason may be), and that may make some difference in how they act.
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Unfortunately, the kids that need that kind of talk are probably not watching Bonnie and Joel. Too "boring". Instead, they're watching Daily Bumps waste money, and Jake Paul yell and hit his walls with a sledgehammer.
I agree, even if it was for the vlog, the kids or parents watching will no doubt think about doing that too. Every time we go to granny's place or anywhere public I try hard to remind my preschooler to have good manners, say "yes please, no thank you, thank you very much. And If someone touches or hits you and you dont like it dont hit back, and tell them you dont want them to touch you and walk to mama." Our kids have 8 cousins the same age or younger so hitting and miscommunication is inevitable amongst these kids, since we have several languages being spoken to them.
I liked that Bonnie did that. It's relatable to me as a parent.
amyfalafal wrote:I agree, even if it was for the vlog, the kids or parents watching will no doubt think about doing that too. Every time we go to granny's place or anywhere public I try hard to remind my preschooler to have good manners, say "yes please, no thank you, thank you very much. And If someone touches or hits you and you dont like it dont hit back, and tell them you dont want them to touch you and walk to mama." Our kids have 8 cousins the same age or younger so hitting and miscommunication is inevitable amongst these kids, since we have several languages being spoken to them.
I liked that Bonnie did that. It's relatable to me as a parent.
I like the remind my kids to be kind to other children too. My 6yo doesn't have a mean bone in his body but he's young and still needs reminding. He has a new boy in his class at school so I just reminded him to ask the new boy if he wanted to play. Simple things like that slip a 6yo's mind when they're busy playing but are important things to be reminded of. I wish more parents would do it because some kids are little assholes.
It's interesting to me that at 8 years old, Olivia still believes in Santa & the Tooth fairy. Will it be shattering to her when she finds out they aren't real?? Will she question whether God is real too? Why give her a choice about God and not Santa & the tooth fairy? Anyway... this just got me thinking.
Where I live in SA grade R or kindergarten is not compulsory by law only from garde 1 to grade 9 ie kids can get a school leaving certificate at 14/15 which is so wrong, I really feel that grade R should be compulsory the kids learn so much in that year and its a great foundation for making friends and a nice middle ground before being pushed into full on school with uniforms etc (if you don't home school) I feel like people really do their child a disservice by not sending their kids and that the government needs to make it compulsory
I cracked up today when Lincoln was playing on the piano and Joel whispered "you are going to die." Lol it sounds so messed up but it was really funny.
It's interesting to me that at 8 years old, Olivia still believes in Santa & the Tooth fairy. Will it be shattering to her when she finds out they aren't real?? Will she question whether God is real too? Why give her a choice about God and not Santa & the tooth fairy? Anyway... this just got me thinking.
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Is 8 years old too old to believe in Santa? I did until 3rd grade and my older brother was in 5th grade before he found out. It didn't make either of us question if God wasn't real.
It's interesting to me that at 8 years old, Olivia still believes in Santa & the Tooth fairy. Will it be shattering to her when she finds out they aren't real?? Will she question whether God is real too? Why give her a choice about God and not Santa & the tooth fairy? Anyway... this just got me thinking.
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Is 8 years old too old to believe in Santa? I did until 3rd grade and my older brother was in 5th grade before he found out. It didn't make either of us question if God wasn't real.
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I think it depends on the peer group. My 10 year old just found out about the tooth fairy and this was only because he found his baby teeth hidden in my room. His friends all still believe in Santa, TF, etc.... or are at least kind enough to not spoil the fun for everyone else. My son was sad the TF wasn't real, but it hasn't even make him question Santa, or other "magical things" yet. Why? He wants to believe. He goes to Catholic school where all the kids believe in God, and finding out about the TF has probably shaken his faith in magic, but not religion. These are two separate entities for most people.
Adults know the TF or Santa aren't real, and yet many of them believe in God. I just don't think the two things are the same at all.
It's interesting to me that at 8 years old, Olivia still believes in Santa & the Tooth fairy. Will it be shattering to her when she finds out they aren't real?? Will she question whether God is real too? Why give her a choice about God and not Santa & the tooth fairy? Anyway... this just got me thinking.
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Is 8 years old too old to believe in Santa? I did until 3rd grade and my older brother was in 5th grade before he found out. It didn't make either of us question if God wasn't real.
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Definitely has to do with who their peers are, if they learn the truth then they'll share it with friends. But also I think position in the family makes a difference. Older siblings typically find out later than their younger siblings since they tend to shepherd their siblings into finding out the truth faster.
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Just the opinion of an internet stranger. Don't take anything personally, for your own sake as well as mine.
personal: i grew up catholic in a catholic elementary school and i remember feeling betrayed by my parents when i found out santa/the tooth fairy/etc weren't real and it definitely did shake my belief in god. i remember thinking "if they lied about santa, who's to say they aren't lying about god too??" not that it matters since i am not religious anymore though
Most children don't even start losing their baby teeth until they are 6 or 7, so it's probably more likely than not for an 8 year old to believe in the Tooth Fairy. 8 is probably prime Tooth Fairy time!
I agree that believing in Santa is different than believing in God. There is undeniable evidence that Santa is just a construct, but God on the other hand can neither be proven nor disproven. It's always based on faith. Kids may start to question this a bit more as they lose the magic in their lives, but they can never know for sure. You can give your children a choice on whether or not to believe in God, but I fail to see how you can give them the same choice for Santa or The TF without losing the fun and magic. I know many parents refuse to follow these traditions because they don't want to lie to their kids, but I personally think it's harmless fun.
It's interesting to me that at 8 years old, Olivia still believes in Santa & the Tooth fairy. Will it be shattering to her when she finds out they aren't real?? Will she question whether God is real too? Why give her a choice about God and not Santa & the tooth fairy? Anyway... this just got me thinking.
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Is 8 years old too old to believe in Santa? I did until 3rd grade and my older brother was in 5th grade before he found out. It didn't make either of us question if God wasn't real.
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Definitely has to do with who their peers are, if they learn the truth then they'll share it with friends. But also I think position in the family makes a difference. Older siblings typically find out later than their younger siblings since they tend to shepherd their siblings into finding out the truth faster.
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Personal: My kids found out because my ex married a woman who had never taught her kids to believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. My daughter was happy about it, because the idea of strangers coming in the house at night, even to leave presents, freaked her out. She still believes in God. I don't think they have to do with each other at all. My son, on the other hand, was _very_ upset, because to his mind, mom. and dad had _lied_ to him. He was furious. It took a long time for him to understand, and to trust us again. I still remember the hurt in his voice-- "You mean you lied to me?" He's agnostic now. Maybe they _are_ related after all.
I could see Boston reacting that way. He seems to view things very black and white-- not a lot of gray. I don't think 8 is old to believe in those things.
lmmomSD wrote:
Personal: My kids found out because my ex married a woman who had never taught her kids to believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. My daughter was happy about it, because the idea of strangers coming in the house at night, even to leave presents, freaked her out. She still believes in God. I don't think they have to do with each other at all. My son, on the other hand, was _very_ upset, because to his mind, mom. and dad had _lied_ to him. He was furious. It took a long time for him to understand, and to trust us again. I still remember the hurt in his voice-- "You mean you lied to me?" He's agnostic now. Maybe they _are_ related after all.
I could see Boston reacting that way. He seems to view things very black and white-- not a lot of gray. I don't think 8 is old to believe in those things.
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Just curious how that woman's kids turned out and if you feel her approach was better? Would they do Santa with their kids? She sounds like a miserable downer to me I'd be pissed if she ruined my children's fun like that. Not her place to do that in my opinion.
I personally think it's fine to let your children believe in things. I'm honest with my kids about just about anything, and would answer "do you feel Santa is real?" if outwardly asked whether Santa is real, but I'm not pointing the strings out to them everywhere. Like I'm not taking them to Disneyland and saying "look at that woman dressed up as Cinderella!" Every parent has lied to their kids at some point, and if you don't think you have, you're probably lying to yourself. The reality that their parents aren't perfect, and have possibly lied, is bound to come at some point. Realizing this over something harmless and fun instead of something serious actually seems gentler to me.
I went to a Catholic school all my life (not Catholic myself). My parents didn't do Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny with me (I think they just thought it was too ridiculous- my Grandmother always referred to it as the "Easter Rodent" ) but I did Santa for sure. I have never once equated learning about Santa not being real with questioning whether or not there is a God. Interesting thought... But I don't think Bonnie's kids would at all associate learning about the non-existence of santa, tooth fairy, easter bunny, etc. with the possibility that they were lied to about God. They may in the future question their faith but I sincerely doubt that it's going to happen when they're 8 or 10 or whatever. Maybe I've misunderstood this conversation, but that's my take on it anyway.
Hmm... I stopped believing in the Easter Bunny when I woke up in the middle of the night and saw my parents assembling my Easter basket, at age 4. Hence it followed that Santa and the Tooth Fairy also weren't real. But it was weirdly embarassing to have caught them, and I never said anything. My siblings came along a bit later and my mom let it be known that when you stop believing in Santa, he stops visiting you, lol. Our family opened gifts from our parents on Christmas Eve, those usually being practical things that we needed, a pair of pajamas, a book to read, etc. We also exchanged gifts we'd bought or made for one another. The gifts on Christmas morning were from "Santa" and some memorable ones were a Barbie Dream House, a bicycle, and a wooden "hope chest" where I started accumulating pots & pans and household items for my own future home. In this way, "Santa" was useful without really spoiling me as a teenager or ruining the illusion for the younger kids.
I don't think I ever tied Santa and such to God. My parents were fairly loose in their interpretation of Christianity (read: God is real but I like to party on the weekends), though, and we never attended church as a family or spent a lot of time talking about religious teachings. I would occasionally attend church with friends of various (Christian) denominations, and my parents bought me a Bible when I was around 7, because I asked. But Sunday School was always a hard swallow and I had questions that weren't well-answered even as young as 6, 7, 8 years old. I didn't really have a framework for the idea of alternate religions from Christianity at the time, and it took me til about age 9 to develop my own views on the matter - but I didn't share them with anyone (including my parents) and continued to attend various churches for social reasons until I was 15. I didn't "out" myself as a skeptic until I moved away from home.
With all of that in mind, it's not an invalid question. I suppose that if you view your parents as incorruptible sources of truth, then learning that Santa isn't real could really damage their credibility. Personally I do not remember ever thinking of my parents that way. I guess it would depend on how well-developed a child's logic is. Incentives matter too - most older kids that I knew thought it was fun to help create the myth of Santa etc for their younger siblings, but in families where the kids aren't very close or there are complications (blended families, narcissistic parents, preexisting trust issues, etc), I can see how it would be more complicated.
In the case of Olivia specifically, though, I don't see her correlating Santa with God or feeling betrayed by the deception. I think she genuinely wants to mimic Bonnie, and that she also does not have a solid framework for the idea that there are viable and acceptable alternatives to the teaching of the LDS church. I also think she has a strong desire to be accepted and feel "normal," so if she ever begins to doubt, it won't happen for a good many years. I would say that one of Ruby's girls would be more likely to balk, just based on their family dynamic, but I would imagine that the pressure to conform is real in Utah.
All that said, I don't have a problem with the narrative that Mormon kids have a "choice." Most are probably excited to get baptised, and if they change their minds later on... it's just water. I think most 8 year olds would "choose" to conform, but that's not really the same thing as being required to conform. If anything, having made that "choice" may be a bridge back to the fold for teens or adults who leave the church, which I also don't have a problem with.
On the issue of questioning the credibility of parents - I think it's worth noting that for the LDS kids (particularly in Utah), they don't necessarily believe there is a God because their parents said so (like Santa). They believe it because they attend church at least once a week, basically from birth. The church is an institution and probably as believable to most as the institution of government. Doubting the credibility of a parent, for whatever reason, does not automatically result in doubting the credibility of the church.
not that it matters since i am not religious anymore though
I'd be pissed if she ruined my children's fun like that. Not her place to do that in my opinion. 
) but I did Santa for sure. I have never once equated learning about Santa not being real with questioning whether or not there is a God. Interesting thought... But I don't think Bonnie's kids would at all associate learning about the non-existence of santa, tooth fairy, easter bunny, etc. with the possibility that they were lied to about God. They may in the future question their faith but I sincerely doubt that it's going to happen when they're 8 or 10 or whatever. Maybe I've misunderstood this conversation, but that's my take on it anyway.
